Creative Piano Pedagogy
This podcast is an enriching resource designed specifically for piano teachers and music educators working with out-of-the-box students: students with disabilities, physical or learning differences, gifted and 2-E learners and neurodivergent students. Each episode delves into innovative teaching strategies, offering insights and practical solutions that promote creativity, inclusivity, and approaches teaching from a positive and student-first environment.
Pedagogue, researcher and music educator Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart will demystify topics such as technique, communication, piano methods, understanding behaviors, autism, ADHD, dyslexia and much more- all with a focus on encouraging teachers to meet the diverse needs of their students and inspiring them to embrace new ideas and cultivate the musical potential of every learner.
Creative Piano Pedagogy
12- Teaching Beyond Assumptions and Neuro-Spicy Takes on Neurodiversity with Tara Mock
In this eye-opening conversation, host Elizabeth Davis-Everhart welcomes piano teacher Tara Mock, who brings 30 years of teaching experience alongside her perspective as a parent of neurodivergent children. Together, they challenge the common misconceptions of neurodiversity that limit both teachers and students in the music studio.
From the myth that autistic students can't be social to assumptions about coordination challenges and behavioral issues, this conversation peels away layers of misunderstanding to reveal the unique gifts neurodivergent students bring to music education.
Ready to see your students—all your students—in a new light? This episode is your invitation to teaching with greater understanding, flexibility, and joy.
Links:
--> Use code FLASH50 at checkout to get Elizabeth's Adaptive Piano Pedagogy 101 course for 50% this week. Click here to apply the discount at checkout!
Resources from Tara on Neurodiversity:
Learn more about Tara
Dr. Scott Price's book on Autism and Piano Study
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Hello, hello and welcome to episode 12 and the second episode in our new series here- Deconstructing Misconceptions of Neurodivergent Learners. You are in for a real treat today, because I have here with me a phenomenal music teacher and an amazing person who is going to give us a really unique and phenomenal perspective on neurodiversity. I'll give her a better introduction in just a moment, but before I do, I wanted to share something really exciting with you. I shared on my Instagram and Facebook recently that I'm going through a website upgrade. This is going to be a brand new, much bigger website that's going to be able to hold all of the courses so that you can just log in right there and do all the materials. It's going to be much more user friendly for you and you'll be able to see everything we have coming up, and the podcast and the blog and lots of freebies, and a new online with resources, etc. I'm very excited about this!
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:But, because the website might look a little wonky between now and then, if you have been eyeing the Adaptive Piano Teaching course, Adaptive Piano Pedagogy 101- This is the comprehensive, self-guided course- I believe it now has 12 videos, over 10 hours of learning, beautiful handouts and study guides to really help you dig into neurodiversity on a much more in-depth scale. We're talking all of the nitty-gritty about most common neurotypes you would encounter in teaching, like autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and the best ways reading approach those students. Music reading, rhythm, performances, repertoire, communication, understanding behaviors, the whole thing. If you have been eyeing that course, you can take 50% off of the price of that course this week only, with the code FLASHSALE50. I'll put that link in the description. But the course is normally $199 and it includes everything I've just mentioned and more. But just for this week, while we're transitioning everything to the new website, since it's going to look a little funky, it can be yours for $99. And that's lifetime access- you can have access to everything for as long as you need and rewatch things as many times as you like. So if you're interested, just head over to the website or click the link in the description and you can use that discount code. It's not published anywhere else, it's just for my friends here on the podcast and on Instagram. So if you're interested and you've been thinking about it, now is the perfect time.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Okay, now to introduce our podcast guest. This teacher comes from the beautiful state of North Carolina in the United States. She has been a piano teacher for over 30 years. She has a bachelor's and a master's degree. Her master's is from the same school I went to for my doctorate, the University of South Carolina. She has experience being an accompanist, a collaborative pianist, a professional church musician, and she has also raised and homeschooled two amazing kids of her own all while keeping up with all the things that happens when you're a musician.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:And I am so pleased to have Tara Mock here on the podcast with me. So Tara tara, thank you for agreeing to be with me on today's episode!.
Tara Mock:. I think we should do this every morning so I can be encouraged every morning. It's a great way to start the day. It is, I love that. So yeah, we'll do this great way to start the day. It is, I love that. So, yeah, we'll do this again tomorrow.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Oh, absolutely Same time.
Tara Mock:Same time, same channel. I'm excited. I love that we can talk about all things piano teaching and bounce ideas off of each other, and it's always good to have a good piano teacher friend and a good friend in general to to share this life year-. .
Tara Mock:Before we get into the nitty-gritty, can you just
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:tell us a little bit about yourself and your studio and your students?
Tara Mock:Yeah, absolutely. I think the older that I get, the less I care about things, so I will be silly and goofy with the best of them. I've been teaching for almost 30 years. Maybe at 30 years, I think, maybe 30 years next year I don't keep track, I don't hold up a sign and tell you what year of teaching I have, but yeah, I started teaching when I was a junior in college with a pedagogy class, and I've been doing it ever since. I kind of took a break a couple of times when my kids were babies, or you know. We've just had a lot of family experiences where I needed to take a break, and then I kept my studio small while I was homeschooling my kids, and so now that they're in college, I'm back to teaching full time again and I love every second of it. I think I have the best job ever!
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:You know, kids can feel, that- students can feel when their teachers enjoy working with them and that's an amazing experience that you give your students, and just that gift of being excited to see them.
Tara Mock:I love that, yeah for sure. And you and I both went to University of South Carolina at varied times, but I got my master's there and I think we initially kind of connected over that. And then your specialization in neurodivergent learners and I'm a mom of neurodivergent family members, kids, everybody. We're neuro- spicy, so yeah.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Thanks for sharing- I love hearing that. And along the lines of neurodiversity, because that's a lot of what we talk here on this podcast of neurodiversity, just in a nutshell, what's your experience teaching neurodivergent students?
Tara Mock:Well, when we as parents have kids, we're essentially a teacher from the time they're born, right, I mean, we're teaching them how to dress and brush their teeth and go potty and all the things. So both of my children are neurodivergent. My son, we kind of knew something was different about him from the beginning, but he really wasn't diagnosed on the spectrum until he was about seven or so. So I have personal experience at being a parent of neurodivergent kids and what it's like to navigate that world and that life, and even with other piano teachers. I had them take with other teachers and they were fantastic teachers. But I also have experience teaching them in my own studio, either purposely or accidentally.
Tara Mock:Sometimes they seek me out- students seek me out because I enjoy teaching students who are neurodivergent and sometimes the students come to me because I'm a teacher. But then as I teach them, I pick up on some things and and just teach them as if they might have that diagnosis. I don't know for sure. And then I, you know, I just love it. I love having to be creative in the moment, because you have to be willing to change gears and go with the flow with that student in that moment, or think of a different way to explain it. I love that creativity. It really gives me a lot of joy. I don't think fast usually in conversations, but when I'm teaching it's my superpower.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Oh, I love that, and you and I have that in common. There's such a- I hate to use the word rush, but it's so exciting when you're in the moment with a student and you have to just pivot and then it works and you see that light bulb. That light bulb moment is just worth every bit of work we put into it, and it drives me. More than seeing my students perform, more than them winning competitions. Those light bulb moments are my favorite.
Tara Mock:They are and you know, I had that experience. I think that's what I loved about homeschooling is getting to experience those light bulb moments with my own kids, like with teaching your kids how to read you know letters, words, not music. It's one of the hardest things I've ever done. It just takes a lot of patience and they hit a wall and then they get over it. But to have them develop this love for reading or they get so fascinated by history, that light bulb, I was able to be there to experience that. So to do the same thing in my studio. But it's always. Both situations are a marathon, not a sprint. You know, you might not have a top-notch performer in six months, but you stay with that student for a few years and you really start to see the the fruit of what you've been sowing. It's just it's like that high you talked about. It's even more of a high and a satisfaction that how we're getting here, we're doing this.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:You say it so well. That is beautiful. Even if we weren't good friends already, I can just feel the love you have for your students and I know they can feel that. This season on the podcast we're kind of taking a different spin on neurodiversity and we are digging into misconceptions of teaching neurodivergent students, because there are A lot. There are a lot of things that I thought would be true about neurodivergent students when I was just starting out teaching. But I would be really curious to hear from your perspective as a parent, as a teacher- give us some of the misconceptions or incorrect assumptions you've heard over the years about neurodivergent students.
Tara Mock:I hope you have a lot of episodes slated for this, because we could talk misconceptions for a while. Yes, but I do want to say up front that, even as long as I've been teaching, and even being a parent, I'm still learning and correcting myself, maybe I still have some assumptions that are incorrect. So, you know, I'm always, I always want to learn and correct things, and I yes, you know everybody just be humble in the process. You can be wrong, it's okay, and just same here. Yeah, so do all the things.
Tara Mock:Oh, so many misconceptions, and I've told this story on other podcasts before but, I think there's a misconception that students who are neurodivergent are socially awkward and people don't want to be around them. Yes, I have a painful story about that experience with my son. I signed him up for something and the leader messaged back and said well, no, he's not welcome here because he would make everybody uncomfortable and that's not the case. And so, yeah, while some struggle and with different things, I think that's a broad generality we need to avoid, right? You know, if you go to my son's college campus, it just tickles us to no end that he says hi to everybody. Everybody says hi to him, like who is this kid, Right? You know, he's just very friendly and positive and sunshiny. And you know, both of my kids learn social interaction the same way we might learn math or whatever. They make observations, they kind of get the feedback or they learn by watching, whereas it's intuitive for some people, they learn it, but they can be very, very good at it.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Yes, that's what I had heard as well, that especially autism, that folks with autism don't like to have conversations or they can't have conversations. It's like blanket statements. And I was a young teacher and I had a student who the parents told me he is autistic. He was the chattiest, most gregarious, outgoing, hilarious, chatty student almost of my entire teaching career and I remember instantly thinking oh, I have a lot to learn and this is going to be really cool because he's going to teach me how he is autistic, not how everybody else is. So, what a painful experience for you and your family to go through with that, but good lesson for all of us that these blanket statements are often not true.
Tara Mock:No, yeah, and that's what we want to avoid is blanket statements. Just avoid the assumptions. Every person is unique. This is my new favorite misconception is0 and I've seen this before but neurodivergent students, specifically students on the autism spectrum or what used to be called Asperger's syndrome, just don't feel emotions or they don't have emotions or they don't express emotions and, you know, tend to be very, very flat in their demeanor. And I think it's quite the opposite and I've learned a lot from my son about this, because he can come across that way, but when you're with him one-on-one, like, he explains things in a very great way. I think sometimes they feel it so deeply and this is just my uneducated theory, but they feel it so deeply that sometimes it's easier to just not feel it. I've seen that with my son especially and know that my son gives me permission to talk about him. He doesn't mind, So I'm not speaking out of turn.
Tara Mock:But we were talking about music recently and this was a misconception that I had. I think I was even talking with you and Christina. I was like, oh well, if somebody has an autistic tendency, how do they even express themselves musically? And both of you were like, oh no, no, this is really where they express themselves. And I was like I was gently corrected and I was so glad. So then I was talking to my son and he says "I use music to help me understand how to feel that emotion oh, that's beautifully put. How to feel that emotion oh that's beautifully put, Right. And I was just huge light bulb moment for me Like okay, they feel strongly, but sometimes they don't know how to put a name to it.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Yes.
Tara Mock:You know, or am I supposed to be this angry? Am I supposed to be this sad? Is this what anger feels like? You know, and um, for him to explain it in that way was deeply profound, like how does that make our job? Then you know that we can help our students I mean, we're not going to get all touchy feely with the emotions and stuff. That's not my job, but to teach them how to express themselves at the piano the piano.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:I am so glad you said that because I believe there are a lot of similar misconceptions that students with disabilities cannot play expressive music. Or I see it in so many Facebook posts. Anybody that follows me on Instagram knows I posted a reel about this a month or so ago. I said I think I may have to ban myself from Facebook- like, I've had it because there are just daily posts- and I'm not even in very many Facebook groups, but daily posts of people asking for advice about neurodivergent students and inevitably the comment section is just a list of well, they can't do this, they won't be able to do that, they can't play expressively, don't expect them to do this, don't expect them to do that. And what you're relating from your conversation with your son, it's actually really opposite and I've heard this from my own neurodivergent students and, like you mentioned, it's such a gift when they're able to articulate and share that insight with us, because not all kids can do that, but when they do, it's a huge learning moment for us.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:I had a student just this past school year and he was really struggling with overwhelm in his lessons and would just shut down very quickly. It was not at predictable times, there seemed to be no pattern and I was really struggling to know what was going on because I couldn't find a pattern. And one lesson he was able to tell me "I am feeling so many things that I don't know which one to tell you first. And a lot of it was actually excitement. Like he was feeling excited about his music or he was so excited about one part of it, but then, maybe a little bit of it was tricky and so the overwhelm was just out-b alancing the joy. That is what I figured out. And so he just didn't know which emotion to lean into, how to express it. And it wasn't that he was just shutting me out, he just was like "well, I'm feeling two things and I guess I just can't tell her about either of them. I can't do it. So I learned something there too about my student, and just a good thing to file away for later. The outward expression is not always what they're really feeling.
Tara Mock:No- there's, I can't think of the movie it is. It's like a mockumentary with a band and it's where they turn the the guitar amp up to 11, but it only goes to 10. It's a hilarious scene, but that's what I always think of is like their brains are at an 11. The input is all very intense, they're feeling very intensely, but they don't know where to start, you know, and so that's kind of what I try to remember. They're at an 11, you know, and anything we can do to kind of I don't know, bring that down. I can't find the right words.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Yes, that's a great perspective. Have you heard any misconceptions about, like the coordination of kids who are neurodivergent in like their hands? I'm curious to see if you've heard any of the crazy things similar to me?
Tara Mock:You're laughing because you're looking at my face. Yes, yes, I see this. A common one is they can't tell their left from their right, or they can't make eye contact, or you know, they can't do this, they can't do that, like you said earlier, you know, or ADHD, they can't stop moving. Well, that's not necessarily right. There's so much, so much about that, and it's just again a broad generality. Most of my little kids can't tell their right from their left. I don't care.
Tara Mock:It's not a big deal. You know which which hand is going to play the high sounds, okay, or put a sticker on the hand. There's so many solutions- not to get wound up about it.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Get wound up. I love it.
Tara Mock:Or the eye contact thing. Like my kids have no problem telling right from left and they have no problem making eye contact and they have, you know, coordination. Yeah, it just depends Sometimes if you have like a motor muscle, motor- Girl. I need more coffee.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Motor planning.
Tara Mock:That's what I was looking for, you know, they're all so unique and some of them are going to be very coordinated, some of them not. I don't know. You probably have more experience in this area. What do you think?
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:I think you're spot on and I always like to give teachers the benefit of the doubt. When I see all of these comments or when I get messages like this, like I have a student who can't or I have a student who won't, I give them the benefit of the doubt because I remember getting new students where all I saw was the things that they were not doing well. As I'm assessing them, it was overwhelming to me as a young, very new teacher, like whoa, they really are struggling with these very basic piano skills. So I try to give teachers the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they're overwhelmed with all the things that aren't going well, but I think we kind of have to shift perspectives here. If we continually focus on the misconceptions and the things we assume from what we see, our students are not going to make much progress because we are limiting them by maybe assuming things. You think?
Tara Mock:Oh, a hundred percent. I don't want to let anything that I do limit my students, and I think that I see that a lot in Facebook groups. There's these sudden assumptions about what you're seeing in somebody's comments, and so it may not even be a post about neurodivergence specifically, but the teacher says my student is doing this and this and this behavior. Right, and we have to remember that we're seeing literally 10 words, 20 words, yes, thank you About. You know, a student who a teacher might have spent hours with. We're getting a tiny snippet, yes, so it's hard to give advice on what's a tiny snippet without getting the big picture.
Tara Mock:And, as you said before, all behavior is communication. So if somebody posts and says the student is doing this, they won't stop playing the piano, they won't sit still, they won't, you know. And then there's this mass of I don't know if it's kind to say like old school teaching, like well, no, if they can't behave, you need to get rid of that student. Well, if they can't do this, you need to get rid of that student. Well, you need to talk to the parents. And it's just this very strict thing. And, as a parent, when my kids were young, we quickly realized that traditional discipline methods didn't work. You know whether it was a timeout or a spanking, a light tap on their diaper, or you know this or that. It doesn't work. And what I didn't understand as a young parent, was what they were trying to communicate. Yes, is there misbehavior? Sometimes Absolutely, you know, we're all. I misbehave,
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:But what you're saying I think, if I can follow your excellent thoughts here- is we are even assuming, based on their behavior, that it's an instant like oh, this is a defiant student or they need to be corrected. If they can't get that, you know, nip it in the bud or whatever. Then they're just doing it on purpose. And that's not always the case from what you're saying and I agree with you, yeah.
Tara Mock:Not always the case. . Look at the bigger picture, look at the bigger situation. A lot of times we don't know what that student has been experiencing that day or that week. You know, if, um, we just want to keep that in mind all the time about our own students and even about other teachers students, you know, don't make a snap diagnosis, don't make a snap judgment about what's happening. You know, open your ears, be be quick to listen and slower to speak.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:That's such good advice for all of us. And, you know, I think this even applies to our neurotypical students Because, you know, if you see a snapshot, if I text you and tell you my student had a terrible lesson, xyz happened, and if your first assumption is, oh, they probably have, you know, all these diagnosis, they could have just had a really bad day that day. Maybe they're going through, their parents are separating and they had to be with another parent or guardian and they didn't have their favorite breakfast. Today it can be something totally not piano related, right, it can be something totally not piano related.
Tara Mock:Right, Absolutely. I think we just need to have a lot of grace. Yes, Remember that we're a small fraction of their lives, but we want to be I know it's maybe an overly used word culturally, but we want to be a safe place for them, not somewhere where they're going to get judgment. I mean we all. Music is unifying for culture, for people everywhere, right, no matter what the culture is, but the music can bring us together and it needs to be a place where we can safely express ourselves, whether we're dancing or feeling something or whatever. We don't want it to make a place of discomfort and fear and, oh, I need to behave. Or, you know, just meet them where they are.
Tara Mock:And if that means you go the long way around to teach something, I'm okay with that. I think I've, you know, I've consulted with you on this student. It takes me a long way around to teach something and in fact, if they were to stop and go to another teacher, the other teacher would probably go. What was she doing? Like? I know she knows how to do that, why, what is the problem? And if you don't have the big picture from me to know that, oh, I have to go the long way around to teach this. This was my long-term goal. Absolutely the context matters. Context matters, yeah, and so just have that heart for continuing to learn more and find the resources. The resources are there. It seems overwhelming. Neurodiversity is a buzzword right now. People are capitalizing on that because, I mean, business is business right, so make sure you have good sources. That's really important too. Facebook can be a dumpster fire. It can also be a wealth of information.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Oh, that's such good advice, and maybe this takes us back to what we kind of started talking about today, and that is, find a good group of teachers around you that you can trust, that have a similar teaching vision and mentality that you do, and trust them to give you good advice.
Tara Mock:it's yeah, and don't don't be scared to reach out, like just because somebody teaches at a university, or somebody teaches uh, or you know, does what you, you do? or they think they're kind of unreachable? Yes, not always the case. Like, I am happy to answer questions, I know that you are. Just just be thankful and appreciative of their time and give a little context to your question and just be ready to learn. Be ready to learn, you know. But that's why we're here. We love what we do.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Yes, and I echo what Tara said- my DMs, my inbox, stays open. It might take me a little bit to get back to you because I get a lot of messages, but, Tara, maybe what we'll do is put in the show notes for today some of our resources. Like, if people have questions about neurodiversity, here are some good, trusted ones to go to, so we'll link that for you, so that if you're curious and you want to dig in a little more, we've got some good places for you to start where you won't have to wonder 'ah, is this misinformation? Is it fake news, like what's going on here.'
Tara Mock:You won't have to wonder, and we have little gems of ideas. I wish you could see me right now I'm doing my little evil planning.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Yeah, she's doing her finger tapping. We have lots more coming on this topic.
Tara Mock:Yes, I'm super, super excited. I love it.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:And if you're listening, then you are hearing from two people who are literally at their peak of joy to talk about neurodiversity. You can't see our faces, but we are smiling so hugely right now because it's so much fun. It's so much fun.
Tara Mock:And I think, when we've talked about this before, it's fun, it fuels us, it gives us joy. The overarching picture is, I love what I do and, you know, find your joy. And if teaching neurodivergent students isn't for you, that's okay. Like we're not looking down on you, just say, hey, this isn't my strong suit. So teaching neurodivergent students isn't for you, that is okay. There is no condemnation from me at all.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Right, and I am so glad you said that, because even if you're listening, you know you don't advertise yourself to be a teacher that specializes in neurodiversity. You don't have to be- to just be curious about how to teach things differently. And that's really what this podcast, Creative Piano Pedagogy, the blog, is all about. It's just helping you be curious and learn how to teach students who just think and learn differently. So you don't have to be or proclaim yourself to be a specialist or even want to be that, just to be curious. I think the best teachers are very, very curious people.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:So if you're here and you're curious, welcome. You're in the right place. Join us. Tara, thank you so much for being on today. I have learned a lot from our conversation and it's reminded me of the importance of not assuming anything about our students- good or otherwise; based on how they look, how they act, how they talk. I don't need to make assumptions about my student because they're their own person. So thank you for sharing all of your wealth of wisdom and I know we're going to be hearing more from you soon.
Tara Mock:Yes, oh, I'm already thinking of things I forgot to say. So we have to do this again. We definitely will.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart:Thank you so much for being here, Tara!
Tara Mock:You're welcome, it was fun!
